UEFA Coefficient development for the next seasons

Sorry ES, but I can't let a comment like that slide.

Wenger clearly cared about winning the match, what he simply did was put trust in a player who was not the best option. His trust in those in his squad has always been admirable and at the same time an incredible weakness. Wenger backs his players and would have truly expected Ospina to put in a performance every equal to that of Cech. Same reason why he wouldn't bring in new faces to compete with Coquelin or replace Arteta and Flamini on the bench. He backs players, doesn't have anything to do with "wanting" to win, that's just a tad absurd, don't you think?

This isn't about Arsenal's quality, everyone knows they're an excellent side. They've bungled two crucial matches though and shot themselves in the foot. Being an excellent side though isn't enough to drop down and win the EL. Every single year, people point at the Group of Death and say the third placed side will win the EL but how often does that happen? Practically never.

So many things affect your chances in the EL. It's a long knockout stage with few controls over who meets who meaning you can quite easily get a horror draw, you have many quality sides from the top leagues and then a whole treasure trove of sides from Eastern Europe who are absolute hell to play because they have such massive experience in this competition now after a few solid years of repeat qualifications. Experience is massive in competitions like these, which is why I thought it absurd that people said the likes of Swansea would come and do well against Olympiakos or plenty of EL sides. It's an absolute minefield of a competition and whilst Arsenal could well win, they'd have to get through the likes of Dortmund, Napoli and others whilst balancing their league commitments which can very easily become precarious at a moment's notice.

They are mentally a joke which is why the initial other teams could have beaten them comment came up.

Olympiakos and Zagreb are crap teams and i'm pretty damn sure most EL sides from Germany, England, Italy and France could beat them.

This is more about bad Arsenal are from a mental stand point than anything else, now watch them actually look good against Bayern now.

Olympiakos beat Atletico and Juventus at home last season, they're hardly scrubs. Granted, they have a very poor away record but they certainly don't deserve such disrespect.

...Zagreb I'll grant you.

This wasn't in Greece though, away from home they are scrubs.

They had never even got a point in England before and scored just twice

Again this is more about Arsenal being a mental joke than anything else.

What Olympiakos did in England 50 years ago is completely irrelevant, who cares if they hadn't won in England before? Arsenal were playing a football team not the weight of history.

They bottled it sure, but Olympiakos grabbed their chance and wouldn't go away. Twice giving up a lead can kill a lot of poor teams mentally. A lot of sides would have gone back into their shell and simply tried to hold onto a draw, especially given a poor away record. Their response though was to immediately attack Arsenal again. Nothing is ever handed to you in the Champions League, I don't care how poor Ospina's mistake was. Arsenal recovered from it before eventually losing, they can't simply blame him.

Considering they play Arsenal nearly every season and regularly face English teams i highly doubt the record is from facing teams 50 years ago

In Ospina's mistake, the Olympiakos player saw him out of position and purposefully shot curving ball into the post. That requires some skill.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Considering they play Arsenal nearly every season and regularly face English teams i highly doubt the record is from facing teams 50 years ago

Every bloody news article keeps quoting how it was their first win in 50 years as if a game against West Ham in 1965 somehow matters. Frankly even games from 6 years ago are hardly relevant due to squad turnovers.

You're right though, they've played English opposition a lot recently, particularly Arsenal, winning at home and losing away. Is it not possible though that they've actually just improved and learned from the last couple of campaigns? We don't view Arsenal as the same side they were three years ago, why do we treat Olympiakos and other smaller sides that way?

dostoevsky wrote:Sorry ES, but I can't let a comment like that slide.

Wenger clearly cared about winning the match, what he simply did was put trust in a player who was not the best option. His trust in those in his squad has always been admirable and at the same time an incredible weakness. Wenger backs his players and would have truly expected Ospina to put in a performance every equal to that of Cech. Same reason why he wouldn't bring in new faces to compete with Coquelin or replace Arteta and Flamini on the bench. He backs players, doesn't have anything to do with "wanting" to win, that's just a tad absurd, don't you think?

This isn't about Arsenal's quality, everyone knows they're an excellent side. They've bungled two crucial matches though and shot themselves in the foot. Being an excellent side though isn't enough to drop down and win the EL. Every single year, people point at the Group of Death and say the third placed side will win the EL but how often does that happen? Practically never.

So many things affect your chances in the EL. It's a long knockout stage with few controls over who meets who meaning you can quite easily get a horror draw, you have many quality sides from the top leagues and then a whole treasure trove of sides from Eastern Europe who are absolute hell to play because they have such massive experience in this competition now after a few solid years of repeat qualifications. Experience is massive in competitions like these, which is why I thought it absurd that people said the likes of Swansea would come and do well against Olympiakos or plenty of EL sides. It's an absolute minefield of a competition and whilst Arsenal could well win, they'd have to get through the likes of Dortmund, Napoli and others whilst balancing their league commitments which can very easily become precarious at a moment's notice.

I'd just like to think that Wenger lets himself value players to the extent that it unintentionally supersede his main objective. I mean he could've played Ospina any other game, but this is the CL, this is, as many Arsenal fans put it on the forum, no time for excuses, he should know better. Its innocencnt naivety, something surprising from an experienced coach.

My comment was that 'if they wanted to' (as in if they made EL their objective) you don' think they have the highest chance of winning it out of all the teams in the EL atm? (not considering the teams seeded later on) looking at the big teams like Dortmund and Napoli, both coaches in their first year, 1 has no experience in Europe whatsoever. Fiorentina are leading Serie A and will probably struggle to maintain balance in Europe and league. Pool and Spurs don't strike me as having that much quality, (plus Pool has its own internal problems going on). Even Eastern European teams for all their sheep slaying, and blood rituals won't be able to trump them if Arsenal really got their heads into it, keep in mind that Arsenal has a decent away record in European knockouts in recent years.

Arsenal have a lot of quality players and play progressive football, they'll finish comfortably in 4th/3rd in the league imo, but don't have the capacity to win it. In EL, the final can be a tangible reality for them, i mean this is the same competition that NUFC managed to go far in. Its really that easy, if they get their heads around it.

These last few posts pretty well sum up, why the coefficient for EPL teams is dropping like a rock in water. These EPL fans keep talking about how good they are, how much money they have, how their liga is so compeitive all the while ignoring the obvious. In comparison to other countries, they are an absolute joke in Europe competitions. every year since they got the big TV contract, they bow out of European competitions after group play except for one or two teams and they usually go soon afterwords. The fact is although they have money and good players, their liga is mediocre and they just can't compete with the best of Europe. It's actually quite ludicrous to hear someone say they don't have experience with the giants of Eastern europe!!!!

El Shaarawy wrote:I'd just like to think that Wenger lets himself value players to the extent that it unintentionally supersede his main objective. I mean he could've played Ospina any other game, but this is the CL, this is, as many Arsenal fans put it on the forum, no time for excuses, he should know better. Its innocencnt naivety, something surprising from an experienced coach.

My comment was that 'if they wanted to' (as in if they made EL their objective) you don' think they have the highest chance of winning it out of all the teams in the EL atm? (not considering the teams seeded later on) looking at the big teams like Dortmund and Napoli, both coaches in their first year, 1 has no experience in Europe whatsoever. Fiorentina are leading Serie A and will probably struggle to maintain balance in Europe and league. Pool and Spurs don't strike me as having that much quality, (plus Pool has its own internal problems going on). Even Eastern European teams for all their sheep slaying, and blood rituals won't be able to trump them if Arsenal really got their heads into it, keep in mind that Arsenal has a decent away record in European knockouts in recent years.

Arsenal have a lot of quality players and play progressive football, they'll finish comfortably in 4th/3rd in the league imo, but don't have the capacity to win it. In EL, the final can be a tangible reality for them, i mean this is the same competition that NUFC managed to go far in. Its really that easy, if they get their heads around it.

Resting Cech for the CL and giving Ospina an odd PL game would make it clear that he doesn't trust the Chilean at the highest level, using him here demonstrates that he thinks he can deliver when Arsenal really need him. It was of course demonstrably silly but that's Wenger, he won't change. This won't have affected his view on anything, this isn't anything new.

Why would Dortmund and Napoli having new managers matter? They're both doing great jobs thus far, aren't they? As for European experience, Wenger has it in spades and it doesn't stop him being curb stomped repeatedly. How much experience did Jardim have compared to Wenger when he knocked him out last year? If they're good enough, they're ready enough.

Why is Arsenal's supposed superiority a protection in the EL when it hasn't been in the CL? Why will their issues with mentality sudddenly cease when they're in that competition? They couldn't knock over Chelsea at their lowest ebb, they've struggled with United even when they were falling apart under Moyes. Even looking at their FA Cup triumphs, they barely beat Hull. Wenger refuses to change his approach, so why would he suddenly do that when meeting sides in pressure situations in the EL? Why would the pressure suddenly not matter? If the issue is mentality not quality, why does anything change?

Also futbol bill, given your comment, I just wanted to check that you understood the experience comment referred to the Swansea claim people were making in another thread, not Arsenal.

dostoevsky wrote:..............and then a whole treasure trove of sides from Eastern Europe who are absolute hell to play because they have such massive experience in this competition now after a few solid years of repeat qualifications. Experience is massive in competitions like these

Tell me what part of the quote I misunderstood? If your EPL was as strong as you proclaim, why would experienced eastern european teams be a concern. They certainly are not for Spanish, German, Italian and even Portugese teams!

dostoevsky wrote:Why would Dortmund and Napoli having new managers matter? They're both doing great jobs thus far, aren't they? As for European experience, Wenger has it in spades and it doesn't stop him being curb stomped repeatedly. How much experience did Jardim have compared to Wenger when he knocked him out last year? If they're good enough, they're ready enough.

They've done well so far, but when it comes to Europe who knows how they'll fare in latter stages. As for Wenger, thats been his issue, there is a stigma in his team and who how he can fix it.

dostoevsky wrote:Why is Arsenal's supposed superiority a protection in the EL when it hasn't been in the CL? Why will their issues with mentality sudddenly cease when they're in that competition? They couldn't knock over Chelsea at their lowest ebb, they've struggled with United even when they were falling apart under Moyes. Even looking at their FA Cup triumphs, they barely beat Hull. Wenger refuses to change his approach, so why would he suddenly do that when meeting sides in pressure situations in the EL? Why would the pressure suddenly not matter? If the issue is mentality not quality, why does anything change?

Because in EL the opposition is usually of a lower quality than the CL. Rgearding Wenger, THats what i was trying to get it, its the stigma with the team. They've shown that they could be something, always on the cusp of doing the amazing/impossible but ultimately fall short (Milan R16, Bayern away R16, mONACO etc) Its just that there is something holding them back, you say mentality but i don't like to think its that (i think stigma is a better word), Wenger managed to turn that around at Bayern away, Monaco away, Arsenal v Milan home. Regarding Chelsea they're the ones who beat them in the first place (Community shield). In EL even if Wenger makes mistakes, i feel he won't be punished as much as in the CL. Ultimately its down to how they approach and what Wenger decides to do.

futbol_bill wrote:

dostoevsky wrote:..............and then a whole treasure trove of sides from Eastern Europe who are absolute hell to play because they have such massive experience in this competition now after a few solid years of repeat qualifications. Experience is massive in competitions like these

Tell me what part of the quote I misunderstood? If your EPL was as strong as you proclaim, why would experienced eastern european teams be a concern. They certainly are not for Spanish, German, Italian and even Portugese teams!

Firstly, I'm not a fan of the EPL.

Others were claiming that the likes of Swansea and Everton would trounce EL sides. I am opposed to this view, hence my statement that not only sides like Napoli and Dortmund would stand in their way but sides from Eastern Europe.

El Shaarawy wrote:They've done well so far, but when it comes to Europe who knows how they'll fare in latter stages. As for Wenger, thats been his issue, there is a stigma in his team and who how he can fix it.

Because in EL the opposition is usually of a lower quality than the CL. Rgearding Wenger, THats what i was trying to get it, its the stigma with the team. They've shown that they could be something, always on the cusp of doing the amazing/impossible but ultimately fall short (Milan R16, Bayern away R16, mONACO etc) Its just that there is something holding them back, you say mentality but i don't like to think its that (i think stigma is a better word), Wenger managed to turn that around at Bayern away, Monaco away, Arsenal v Milan home. Regarding Chelsea they're the ones who beat them in the first place (Community shield). In EL even if Wenger makes mistakes, i feel he won't be punished as much as in the CL. Ultimately its down to how they approach and what Wenger decides to do.

In each of those performances you mentioned, it was when the pressure was off the side, not when it mattered.

They completely blew the first legs in each of those ties and looked like frightened children. Then come the second leg, with no pressure, they suddenly began playing, got themselves back into the tie then bottled their remaining chances as soon as it meant something again. The only evidence those ties give is that you can trust Arsenal to do just enough to fail honourably.

Even the Community Shield is a game where winning or losing doesn't really matter to the whole season. They got a useless piece of silverware then as soon as actual points leading up to a target - the league - were up for grabs, they bottle it.

Quality doesn't really affect how much pressure you're under. Being the favourite has its own pressure, that of the expectation to win. We've seen that affect Wenger just as much over the years.

I'm not trying to say I don't think they could win. I just have an issue with suggesting that it's their trophy if they "truly want it."

Wow Dosto , chill with your logic man , i think you're making too much sense here .

Clearly what was happening for 5 decades ago should still be the deciding factor for a win in England today , how the teams play , what decisions they make and how good they are doesn't matter. sigh

Besides , all the goals were gifts . I read that only here btw .. some people really need to relearn what 'a gifted goal' means in football . Hint : a -for-no-reason- , missplaced backwards/horizontal pass because of tunnel vision , would be one of the most common examples . Conceding from a deflection , is hardly a gift , simply an unlucky moment. Had the defender slipped while trying to defend his ground and Pardo shot straight at goal?? That would be a gift! Not what happened , not by any stretch of the imagination . Only the 2nd was a gift and i'd say it pretty much equals Arsenal's first goal , which was a gift by Roberto , ball slipping right through his arms , shot wasn't even that good. 3rd goal was just a proper counter lol , why is that a gift ? just because Arsenal's defence sucks? If that's a gift , half the goals we see are gifts.

On a more serious note , i've grown up watching Olympiacos over the years , when i was a kid up untill 12 years old , i was a fan . I remember all the CL games Olympiacos had after 2000 in England , games against United , Liverpool , Arsenal , Newcastle(may have been in UEFA cup , not sure right now) , Chelsea , e.t.c.

What i can say today , is that this is not the same Olympiacos of 10+ years ago , the club has grown a lot . It's not even just the club , it's the fans mentality over the years that has changed. Majority aren't afraid of the big teams bar the top 3-5 maybe , there's no boogy factor home or away when Olympiacos plays in europe nowdays. Even against Bayern , everyone expected to lose , but people expected Olympiacos does everything to even steal a point if they could.

Sure his away wins don't come that often , but Olympiacos' fanbase always expects things from the team , home or away . Like , it doesn't matter how often he wins away from Athens , nobody thinks like that which is being portrayed here... like , "oh it's away , we'll get destroyed , we can't win cause Arsenal. Neither Olympiacos the team nor the club think like that , always grounded but expecting to always put up a fight no matter what.

Olympiacos has seriously grown as a club ever since 2000 and in 07-08 , that was the year 0 that trully turned a page in how they approach European games and how they build teams , slowly building a mentality that has rewarded both club and fans over the years. Also , Euro 2004 had a great impact on the mentality of greek football in general , with Olympiacos being the first to make true progress over the years. I don't expect people to know these things , but yeah , i at least agree completely with almost everything you said here about Olympiacos .

In any case , Arsenal's defence was pretty shit that night , even if it wasn't Olympiacos , it would have been someone else that would have won . But yes , 50 years and shit , kek . Nobody of their fans was even afraid of Arsenal , as they have been playing each other often throughout the years and everybody knew Olympiacos was in pretty good form in any case .

As a matter of fact ; not sure if any Arsenal fan here remembers the last time Olympiacos played at the Emirates , 2-3 years ago?.. Valverde , Bilbao's current coach was the coach then and they had a pretty solid game despite a 2-0 defeat . It certainly looked like Olympiacos deserved more from that game , can't say they deserved to win but it wasn't easy at all for Arsenal . Even then they looked Arsenal pretty straight in the eyes , just like they did a few nights ago , the only difference is that in the more recent game they were better in attack than last time and much more solid at defending , despite conceding the same amount of goals .

dostoevsky wrote:

El Shaarawy wrote:They've done well so far, but when it comes to Europe who knows how they'll fare in latter stages. As for Wenger, thats been his issue, there is a stigma in his team and who how he can fix it.

Because in EL the opposition is usually of a lower quality than the CL. Rgearding Wenger, THats what i was trying to get it, its the stigma with the team. They've shown that they could be something, always on the cusp of doing the amazing/impossible but ultimately fall short (Milan R16, Bayern away R16, mONACO etc) Its just that there is something holding them back, you say mentality but i don't like to think its that (i think stigma is a better word), Wenger managed to turn that around at Bayern away, Monaco away, Arsenal v Milan home. Regarding Chelsea they're the ones who beat them in the first place (Community shield). In EL even if Wenger makes mistakes, i feel he won't be punished as much as in the CL. Ultimately its down to how they approach and what Wenger decides to do.

In each of those performances you mentioned, it was when the pressure was off the side, not when it mattered.

They completely blew the first legs in each of those ties and looked like frightened children. Then come the second leg, with no pressure, they suddenly began playing, got themselves back into the tie then bottled their remaining chances as soon as it meant something again. The only evidence those ties give is that you can trust Arsenal to do just enough to fail honourably.

Even the Community Shield is a game where winning or losing doesn't really matter to the whole season. They got a useless piece of silverware then as soon as actual points leading up to a target - the league - were up for grabs, they bottle it.

Quality doesn't really affect how much pressure you're under. Being the favourite has its own pressure, that of the expectation to win. We've seen that affect Wenger just as much over the years.

I'm not trying to say I don't think they could win. I just have an issue with suggesting that it's their trophy if they "truly want it."

Fair enough

Thanks Dante, enjoyed the post! Was thinking of you when defending Olympiakos.

Also this thread has gone so far off topic.

England: 5.25
Italy: 5.00

Will Italy surpass England by the next CL date?

Serie ZzZz fans to finally have their moment ?

England is really hurt by the early elimination of both West Ham and Southampton: http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2016.html

Coefficient points in total for this weeks European competitions:

ROMA 1 POINT
JUVENTUS 1 POINT
FIORENTINA 0
NAPOLI 2
LAZIO 2
6/6 = 1 POINT TOTAL
-----------------------------
ARSENAL 2
CHELSEA 1
CITY 2
MAN U 1
TOTTENHAM 0
LIVERPOOL 1
7/8 = 0.875 TOTAL POINTS

Italy is chipping away. Fiorentina is the weak one, not Lazio.

Bayern - 0 points
Wolfsburg - 2 points
Gladbach - 1 point
Leverkusen - 1 point
Dortmund - 2 points
Schalke - 1 point
Augsburg - 2 points
---------------------------
9/7 = 1.286 points

But Bayern

I imagine Fio would pick up more points as we go along. I hope at least

rwo power wrote:Bayern - 0 points
Wolfsburg - 2 points
Gladbach - 1 point
Leverkusen - 1 point
Dortmund - 2 points
Schalke - 1 point
Augsburg - 2 points
---------------------------
9/7 = 1.286 points

Then Arsenal came

Real Madrid 1 point
Atletico Madrid 2 points
Sevilla 0 points
Barcelona 2 points
Bilbao 2 points
Villarreal 2 points

Total 9 points. Average 1.5 points